Earlier this year, I opted for an elective paper titled, “Design for Inclusive Environment and Accessibility” during my second semester at the Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai. As part of the assessment, I was given the opportunity to interview a resource person. While at first the prospect of interviewing an expert in the field felt rather intimidating given that I had only a semester’s worth of knowledge about the subject, Navjit’s forthcoming and warm attitude had a calming effect, right from the start. It was heartwarming and insightful to talk about his journey and his vision for the future. I extend my heartfelt gratitude towards Navjit, thank you once again for being so generous with your time and insights!
Interviewee: Ar Navjit Gaurav. Navjit is a doctoral candidate in Rehabilitation Science at Queen’s University. His research focuses on creating an enabling learning environment for the meaningful participation of children with disabilities in community schools. He is currently supported by the Queen Elizabeth II Diamond Jubilee Scholarship awarded by Queen Elizabeth Scholars Program, Canada.
Interviewer: Shivangi Gupta. Student, M.A. in Development Studies, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai.
Date and Time: 8 pm, 21/4/22
Meeting place: Zoom
Acknowledgement: I would like to express my gratitude to my professor, Dr Vaishali Kolhe, who provided me with the opportunity to have such an insightful and fruitful discussion.
Interview Transcript
Shivangi: I just want to begin, first of all, by thanking you for taking the time out of your busy schedule and agreeing to do this. This will be audio recorded, as it’s being collated as part of this series of individuals working in different fields, to make the world more inclusive and accessible. We hope that it will be a valuable addition, for people to learn, from your important work. So thank you so much for agreeing to do this! I also want to just say that I only have a suggestive framework of questions, so whether you want to be brief or meander as much as you want, please feel free to do so. Right, so I’ll just begin with a brief introduction of my own. And maybe then you can introduce yourself, for the benefit of the audience. And, then we can maybe begin a sort of back-and-forth question and answer session.
Okay. So I’m Shivangi, I am a student of Development Studies at TISS, Mumbai, and I’m interested in issues of gender and sustainability. And as part of my dissertation, I’m working on the care economy and its implications on women’s participation in the labour force. So I took this elective paper, Design for Inclusive Environment and Accessibility to enhance the scope of my research. And as part of the paper, we’ve been allotted these different niches to work on like, inclusive and accessible clothing for all, accessible housing for all, etc., and thus I have the opportunity to have this conversation today.
Navjit: Okay. And now do I need to introduce myself, right? Okay. So, hi, my name is Navjit. I have done my undergrad from the school of planning and architecture in Bhopal. And after doing that, I worked for around four years in Delhi, in the field of architecture, as well as a community architect in the slums of Delhi to enhance access to education and create some community spaces for the people who are living in the slums. And then while working in the community, I got to meet some of the people with disabilities and I had no idea. And as an architect, we are just trained to design things based on the parameters, but, the social aspect of that is completely missing from the practice of architecture and also the economics of architecture, where we are taught how to design buildings, just not the buildings, but also the environment around the individual, be the community environment, social environment, and how building shapes the psychological and social environment as well.
So to enhance my knowledge further, I went to Tata Institute of social sciences, and I did my master’s in disability studies and action to understand what are different types of disabilities and what are their needs, what are the issues that are associated with them, not just related to the buildings, but also the way society shapes this infrastructure or the environment, for instance, as an architect, how we shape a community environment and how that enables or restrict the participation of people with disabilities. So from these learnings, I tried to work more towards education. That is my niche area, and I’m so passionate about working in the field of education and accessibility. And that’s what I was working on while I was working in the slums of Delhi. So I chose to do my master’s dissertation on understanding the accessibility and architectural and academic barriers for students with orthopaedic disabilities in higher education institutions.
And, prior to finishing my dissertation and, graduating from TISS, I started working with I-Access Rights Mission, and we conducted the accessibility assessment and training and capacity building of key stakeholders from 14 state-funded universities in Maharastra. And these stakeholders include vice-chancellors, Principals, people who take decisions, whose decisions impact the lives of children, and staff with disability in these university setups. Then we also did capacity building of the architects and the engineers who would be the implementing authorities once the decisions are made, who are implementing these decisions within the university. So we did some training, which was just not the training inside the room, but also onsite training. I took them around the sites and informed them what were the barriers and how they could just observe these barriers, how they can rectify these barriers and correct them because modification takes a lot of time, in the majority of the Indian context, as in largely in India, as architects, when people design buildings, we tend to either overlook or maybe because of some constraint in terms of budget design time, we intentionally or unintentionally overlook the design considerations that are more inclusive in nature for people, right? And, once it is rectified after the design is made or after people start inhabiting these spaces, then we realize, okay, there are issues with accessibility. And then those add on features take a lot of time and effort, and also, since initially, it was not well thought out, we might have a lack of space to create these accessibility provisions. And, even though we add on these features like we’ll build a ramp or provide an accessible toilet, we end up doing a disaster where the things are not at all accessible because initially when it was not well thought of, we have space constraints within the buildings and we cannot make it accessible by just providing the modification or right on features. So there, I guess I, as an architect or as a community of architects, we lack a lot in terms of understanding about disability, in the same project, we’re not limited to the designers and the key decision-maker, but we also involve the end-user, as in, is students with disability and the staff with disability, we took them on board, understand their perceptions and experiences related to this university’s business and what challenges they are facing because that was more meaningful coming from the end-user who is using it based on their experiences. We devised some parameters. We prepare the reports and based on those reports, I guess, um, the ministry of higher education or the department of higher education has reserved 4% of their entire university fund just to make the campus accessible across Maharastra. and that will not help just to create the accessibility provisions in terms of the built environment, but also accessibility within, in terms of providing the accessible curriculum, providing the access to the examination centre, providing access to other, capacity building opportunities, or let’s say the skill development opportunities for the children. So yeah, the definition of access or the umbrella access has increased, it’s just not limited to the building and the while pursuing the master’s at this, I got this opportunity to apply for this scholarship, Queen Elizabeth’s Scholarship which allowed me to move to Canada and further pursue my education.
So while doing my master’s dissertation, I realized that, it’s not just the higher education. There is a huge gap in primary and secondary school education as well, where children with disabilities are facing significant problems. And based on their negative participation experiences in the school setting, due to the built environment, they usually drop out, or they don’t come to school because even it creates a negative impression on their parents, right? So, based on that, I shaped my PhD dissertation and currently, I’m looking at how we could design the community schools in the informal settlements of India, particularly, my focus is on Mumbai to see what could be the design consideration so that children with disability will not only have a better experience, but also they enjoy learning and complete their schooling and move ahead in their life. So that is what is going on.
Shivangi: That was going to be my first question, what are you currently working on and you have already answered that. So my next question is, what is the motivation or inspiration behind taking up disability as a field or what keeps you going, is there a particular story or person or anything that comes to mind?
Navjit: Yeah, so when I think of this question, it takes me back to my childhood days when I was in primary school, I had this friend who was having an orthopaedic disability and he was using a wheelchair and our classroom was on the first floor of this school. And I could see, what were the challenges he was facing. He would not participate. He would not come to the class. He would not play with us. He would either sit idle at one corner due to this limitation in participation. He gradually started not coming to school on a regular basis. And, he ended up dropping out of school, which was very surprising for us because as a kid, we always try to include each one of us, and try to play with our friends. So we did try doing something. But again, it was more like now when I reflect on that, it was more like, that we were imposing dependency on him. Like he was completely dependent on us to be a part of it, not the physical environment. So that was one of the motivations that drove me. But again, when I went to architecture, I had no idea how things are being made and how we are creating this environment.
And, the second kick I got when I started working in the community of Delhi was because the informal settlements are completely inaccessible because they are built on informal land and they just are, not a concrete structure right there in Indian terms, if you look at the, architectural term, it’s called either pucca house or kutcha house, right? So it was kutcha housing where the lanes or the connections to these houses were not firm. And they had to face significant challenges and also meeting the people with disabilities there and trying to understand the needs and working on that within the community setting, definitely motivated me a lot to work towards that. And once I went to TISS, TISS as an institution shaped me to be a better human being. And that’s what it does to any one of us. And it will definitely impact you as well to think more about the social aspect of things. I am currently in the urban design and urban planning and architectural field, people are looking a lot towards the social aspect of design planning and architecture because it was completely missing. And now they know that even though they create these facilities, it won’t be meaningful for the people. So, even in my fieldwork at TISS, when we went to the communities in Mumbai and work with people with disability, these things keep on motivating me. And when you think about those people as in these children, or maybe people with disabilities or students with disabilities, they have a Right, right? And it’s we who have more privilege as an architect or designers to think around those lines.
Shivangi: My next question is, what is the vision for the current project that you’re working on? What are some of the goals that you are working towards?
Navjit: Yeah, so, particularly thinking about Indian schools, not the private schools because some of the private schools, not most of them are having good funds, and they’re also aided by the government. So there are three types of schools in India when it’s government-funded when it’s government-aided (government provides some aid) and when it’s a completely private entity. So the ones that are a private entity, are majorly targeting the people who are more privileged or the children who are more privileged in this society. They have some sort of reservation of space, for the children with disability, but those are again at the minimum level. And I believe as an architect when we create an environment, it not only impacts the people’s participation but also their psychological state. And it is very important when you design these spaces or build spaces, plan spaces that the people who are inhabiting these spaces, who are going to be in that space, when they’re going to enjoy or use that space, they should be empowered by the kind of design or the environment that we are doing. So that is the aim. The aim is to, come up with some design considerations that could not only help the school infrastructure to be child friendly but also empower these students.
And it should not just be limited to research. I’m also planning to work on the implementation part of it, because the majority of the time, if we think about Indian, landscape architecture, these research are limited to the research only, it does not get implemented, or the translation of knowledge is limited. This translation part is where we are lacking. So that is, one of the goals. Another goal is to, um, maybe collaborate with some of the agencies of the United Nations and see how things are working across, the inclusive education centre and what I can pull from my research that can help the children across the world. So that is the larger aim, but again, that will be definitely pilot tested in different countries to see how things work because, majorly if you look at the education set-up, we are still in the mode of integration. But inclusion means that they are not just welcomed in the school, they are not just going to this school, but they are also enjoying this school learning equal to others. So that is where we are lacking. And that is the, I guess I hope.
Shivangi: What kind of challenges or hardships have you faced in your work?
Navjit: Uh, challenges. I’ll talk majorly in two terms, one is academic and the other is, practical. Going back to India and talking to these people, so in terms of academics, there are lots of challenges, particularly coming from India, because the thing is, English is not our first language, right? Even though we are taught in English, study in English, but again, being an Indian, we are more descriptive words, whatever we are saying. To describe things a lot, but usually, if you come to the North American context, or even in Europe or UK in academics, they want something that is very succinct. That is to the point, you are not creating the story out of it or creating a narrative, just tell what you want to say, right? So it’s very important for a scholar or an academician to know what not to say when you are asked something, that is where we lack a lot. And that was a significant challenge for me in my first year of PhD. So, that has been a great learning, which I always wanted to share with all the students or scholars who are there in India, and want to pursue their careers in academia.
Another challenge, particularly related to the, implementation of these ideas or architecture is that, majorly people who are there working for these children, or maybe the decision-maker, the architects, the government authorities, are very reluctant to change. They have a fixed understanding or notion about what is there, which is very good for the children. And that has come as a part of my research finding as well, that we, as an adult, think that this is best for the children, rather than talking to children, what is best for them. So even if we are creating a school space, that will be an adult perception of how child-friendly space should be. It’s not a child’s perception, right? And that’s why we end up making these spaces, by investing a lot of money, building these infrastructures, but that lacks meaning for the children and they won’t participate in that space. Another thing is, in the Indian context, taking permission takes a lot of time because of the hierarchy or the structure of the Indian bureaucracy. It takes a lot of time to get a simple approval of things and that delays the entire process and the timeline, and to meet those timelines, the project manager has to rush the design. And in terms of assessing the design, they may tend to overlook it.
Another thing is the people who are actually implementing this design on-site, for instance, the contractor dimensions, the labourers, all these are not trained. They are not skilled. They do whatever is safe to them. So while implementing they end up making something, which is not usable, and when it is not usable, they don’t try to modify it because already investment has been done in that. And that’s why we ended up making all those ramps. If you go to all the cities, even the best of the Metro cities like Mumbai or Delhi, you’ll see all those ramps. They are very funny. They’re not at all usable, forget about the accessibility, right? So that is there. Another thing is, people’s behaviour about these things in India. If, we have all these policies and framework, which is very comprehensive, that if implemented to their soul and heart and create a better inclusive environment, but again, the way people behave towards that, even when one tries to create something, they are not accepting towards those things, right? So there is a huge issue related to the behaviour of the people in terms of instrumentation.
So these are some of the challenges that I could see when I maybe return back to India and start working. That’s going to be a huge challenge because particularly in the Canadian context, it’s all organized. It’s so formal, it’s very well structured, and you can directly go and talk to a member of parliament. Like I’m talking to you, you can go and connect with them, share your ideas, and you’d be more than welcome, but in India, we have those, but I’ll say, it’s still the British culture is existing, where we have those hierarchies. You cannot go and talk to the people, even talking to the faculty members is very difficult in the Indian context.
Shivangi: I think you answered my next question in part, but I’ll still ask it, how do you combat, societal prejudices or stereotypes?
Navjit: It takes a long time. I’ll tell you a small narrative from our experiences while working in the slums of Delhi. So usually what happened when let’s say a researcher or any government authority, they go to these informal settlements of people who are socially vulnerable. They go and interact with them. They collect data, they return back publish a report, and then they don’t do anything with those findings. So when I started, when we started working in these slums of Delhi, the first response from the people was that they [researchers] come every year, they ask the same thing and there’s no implementation. So in that, what happens is many a time, the answers or the feedback that they provide is fabricated because it’s not the actual experiences of them. They know that they’ll come and collect data and they’ll go away, but we knew that we are going to stay there, right? And then there are some community leaders who have their own agendas and who have their own as in political groups who have their own whole power holding in the community. So they, again, act as a, resistance to what you’re planning to do. So, the thing is you, if you want to combat those challenges, I would say, be persistent, be consistent with what you’re working and show them that actually, it is going to create some impact how by involving them in the process because if you involve them in the process, even if you let’s say step out of those informal settlements, they have a sense of belongingness to that space. They take ownership of the space. They take care of it as if it is their own space, right? And that sense is very important to infuse when you are creating such spaces. And if you’re able to do so, maybe through community engagement, community outreach, and involving the people in the process, it shouldn’t be completely participatory, right from the beginning, involve them, let them decide what they want, how they want it to be. You just be a support for them, right? If you are able to do that, you be able to combat the challenges, let’s say stigma related to disability, and then say, okay, there is very less number of people with disability, children with disability. Why would we create such a facility? So in terms of that, also, if you involve, let’s say a parent of children with disability, or a group of children with disability, the volunteers make them aware about these things, why it is important. So yeah, those are some of the things that can help you.
Shivangi: So the next question is about, um, is the work, sustainable? So I think the import of that question is that since the work is very emotionally demanding, so it’s not just that you have to physically and mentally invest, but also emotionally invest. Is there a way that you have found to sort of navigating a work-life balance?
Navjit: Yeah. So, that is a very important question actually, when you go and work with the community because it’s not you being physically present there, but it emotionally drains you a lot. Because when you listen to these narratives, you return back, let’s say from the community, but those stories stay back with you. So how it works for me to maintain balances, I always use those stories as a motivation or a kick for me to start, keep working, stay motivated, and keep working for, let’s say these communities, right? It’s very difficult to detach from those emotions because, and, and sometimes I feel it’s good. It’s good to get disturbed when you go to the community because we are in our very comfort zone settings in these homes. And although we have seen people let’s say on the streets or somewhere, we are not actually aware of what’s going on, what the story is. So it’s very good to get uncomfortable. I believe the innovation or the better ideas come, once you are feeling discomfort, once you come out of your comfort zone, you come up with wonderful ideas to cope with these things, right? So at times it’s very good to get disturbed, get challenged with these stories and see how you balance. So for me, how I balance it is a whatever experience I come up with. I write them, let’s say, I’ll write an article on LinkedIn, or just write in my diary about that. And then keep a note of what was the key learning from that and how I can use it in my research. Right? I discuss and talk a lot about these things. When, wherever I get the opportunity, let’s say I go to a conference to present some of my work. And if I get an opportunity within that timeframe to share a story, I’ll definitely share that story because I want people, I love people to make people uncomfortable with these social realities. That helps me, I guess, maybe to stay motivated and maintain the work-life balance. And also I don’t take the work home. I have learned, one thing hard time coming to Canada is there is no work on Saturday and Sunday. So even if I have great deadlines, I’ll work the entire night or Friday, I won’t work a single thing on Saturday and Sunday. And that is one thing that you usually receive when you come to a North American context, the first email that comes to you is even if you want to entertain your email or the weekends, all the emails will be replied to on Monday.
But usually, in the Indian context, we are more adaptable to working in under process. So we will end up as in, investing our entire weekend without thinking about how stressful it is a plus that it creates on how much pressure it creates on our mental well-being and all we’d never think of those things, but which is very, that is something that I’ve learned. And I always try to, convey that to the students from India. The scholars from India, who wants to go into the academy are still who are studying. Just take some meaningful break. It is very important for your own well-being. Go for a walk. If you are stuck somewhere, go for a walk. Don’t talk to people, plug in your phone, listen to songs, whatever best calms you down, do that, eat food, go watch movies. Do that. I’ll tell you, I guess I am one of those students who would watch movies or go out with my friends just a day before the examination because I cannot study. I cannot do that. Even in tests. Our third semester of disability studies is very hectic, very hectic with all the deadlines, going to the community, and working on the counselling, it’s very draining as an emotional experience, it drains you a lot, so to cope with those things, we used to do that thing. Hang out with your friends, talk to them, and do all sorts of things that you feel will help you out because we are not trained in, since our childhood in India, we are not trained to work on our mental well-being. There’s a lot of pressure from all across society. Don’t think about that. Think about how best you can work, and that will help you a lot in going ahead and staying recharged. Otherwise, you’ll keep on thinking the same thing, right?
Shivangi: Yeah. I’m also wondering then once you do come back, how it’s going to change for you because here the environment is so sort of entrenched that you know, working on the weekend is also like, a given.
Navjit: Well, I know, I know, I know. See the thing is also how you organize yourself. It helps you a lot because I believe organization help you a lot in maintaining that balance. So for me, I start my day, I have the entire month planned. I have my entire week planned and I start every day by planning the day. What is the deadline for today? What am I supposed to do today? Let’s say I’ll write a paragraph of a chapter about my thesis, I’ll write one segment of my manuscript, of the paper that I’m writing for my Ph.D. I’ll do that. And I try to finish that no matter what. And I still, after that, I have a lot of time. For instance, I have four hours every day free for me to do anything. Despite of me going out for a walk, going to cycling, swimming, maybe playing music, writing something. I still have four hours. So that’s how, if you could organize that, it can work in an Indian setup as well.
Shivangi: So the next question is about affordability. Um, so a lot of interventions, when we think of them, sound really expensive, or at least the perception is that way. So is this a real concern or are there, um, solutions that are, affordable and can be easily implemented?
Navjit: That is another important question about affordability because in India, when we think about implementation, one of the key issue that comes up is the budget, budgetary constraints, and how the money we have is implemented. And that is, something because of, I guess, the insensitivity of the architects and planners. They don’t think of these provisions right from the beginning. And when, when we try to modify, research suggests that it almost costs 60% of the entire project cost to modify one thing which is way too much because the project is done. And if you consider right from the beginning, it would cost 0.6%, which is very less, right, to construct the thing. So that is not known. People are not informed. There are definitely, affordable, solutions to these problems, for instance, I’ll tell you one experience from my, rural practical when we went to North Karnataka, we went to 42 villages, We did a survey about what are the provisions, and how we could improve that. And, it was found that government invest almost one lakh rupees to build a ramp.
And yeah, and it cost them a lot, but what was found there, it was almost one lakh for one ramp and all those ramps were built overnight. For instance, let’s say there is an election, so they want to promote accessible elections, so they build the ramp overnight. And you cannot build even a small segment of a building overnight, right? And it takes time to settle down, concrete takes 14 days of time to settle down. That is a given as in the timeline. So even if they build overnight, they end up making disasters. I have seen people as in children sliding down those ramps, playing, which is not at all accessible. So when we, tried to, as in, come up with some solution, I remember we ended up making one ramp within 20,000 of Indian money using local resources, which means that at the cost of one ramp, you can construct five ramps.
And it’s not the ramp that is just there, but It is accessible and usable by the people. It has a proper slope. It has handrails on both sides with two heights for children and adults. So that is the scenario. People are not aware that things are locally available. So the materials are locally available. Try to use that. Don’t just copy things from what is existing in the west, because if you end up copying that it will cost a lot and you will end up making nothing, right? So we need to be really considerate about materials because see the cost shoots up when you use different materials like materials play a big role in design and architecture. So think about those materials, which are locally available, that can be definitely affordable and you will cut down a lot of costs from that.
Shivangi: What is the unique value of your work or any prototype solution that you have come up with?
Navjit: Yeah. Yes. So, one value that I really carry since childhood is, there is definitely an alternative to all the problems that are existing in the society. It’s just that you need to keep your eyes open for that. And also when you are trying to let’s say, create a solution for a problem, involve the people whose life it is impacting, because even with the Indian, the smart cities, they are coming up with a good infrastructure solution to meet the challenges. But see if the cities are getting smarter, people are getting left behind. They’ll create huge opportunities for the people in the cities are getting infrastructure, better infrastructure, great opportunities means greater migration from the rural area. And those people who migrate they’ll end up residing in these informal settlements or the slums or the bastis, right? And then they will be sharing the same infrastructure, which will create again, immense pressure on the infrastructure. So we never think of these things. So always think about for whom you are creating it and how it is going to impact their life, right? It’s not you who is going to use that.
So that could be one of the ideas when you start with, and it is applicable in all the settings, it’s just not in architecture or built environment. It’s also in terms of research. It’s also in terms of teaching, for instance, let’s say, I want to take lecture on accessibility and design for students like you in India, right? So I need to understand what would be your capabilities and how you want that, like lecture to help you, right? It’s not me coming in, giving you the lecture, talking to you about accessibility, if there is no dialogue or discussion on those presentations or those ideas, and there is no meaning of it. You can see that as a similar lecture on YouTube as well, right? Just listen to people, whatever they are talking about. Right. So it’s always important to have dialogue. Like you have a background in literature, you love dialogue, right? It’s better to learn from this dialogue and that’s what we are missing.
Shivangi: Some diversity, yes, a lot of the times I feel that people talk about similar things because they’re from the same or similar backgrounds. And then the conversation just becomes redundant. It doesn’t need to be.
Navjit: Indeed, indeed, indeed. And you need to respect the voices of people, as in that is a general tendency in India that we overlook the voices of people that are from a socially vulnerable group, or maybe socially marginalized group, we tend to overlook their voices. And we tend to, let’s say, if you’re planning some policy or intervention, they tend to create something that is, again, goes back to the discussion on adults perspective, do a design for children, right. What do we think, what is best for them, who are we to decide what is best for them? Right. And unless we think about these questions, we end up creating something that is not at all usable.
Shivangi: Uh, so this is, I think the second last question, what are your dreams and hopes for the future? So you can make it individualistic, as in your career, or you can sort of think about the field. As in the innovations that are happening right now.
Navjit: That’s interesting because that is, I guess, one of the first questions that I was asked when I landed in Canada, by my supervisor, what are the other things, how you see yourself working, where you will end up after this PhD. and I’m still figuring it out because I still have two ways to go, which is very wrong. I should have at least one idea of where I should end up. So either he can, I can go to academia and, let’s say, go and teach in any of the universities back in India and help people who are studying there, come up well informed and maybe they could be the change agent for the society. Another thing is I don’t want to limit my research or ideas to the Indian context. I definitely wanted to help the people in India, help the children in India. I want to see every child in school. I don’t know that could be a wild dream. I don’t know how it is possible, but I will no matter what, try my best to do whatever I can in my capacity. And it will not just be restricted to India because, I have, eh, within my class I have students from different countries. And when it again goes back to your discussion about diversity. So when we discuss, let’s say a simple thing, they have diverse experiences and they say their experience. And from there, I get a lot of ideas about how my research could impact. We build globally, how I can test, let’s say my findings in Ethiopia, in other African contexts or other Asian in contexts like Vietnam, Indonesia, Burma, Bangladesh, and Pakistan, where again, these settings are space limited. How we could come up with something that is locally available, that doesn’t cost much and make people aware of it. If you could end up doing that, that would be a wonderful to create, or maybe a step or a small contribution from my side to create an inclusive society. Right. And again, it begins right from you because you need to share all your past experiences, you would need to unlearn a lot of things in that process. And it has been as in, a long journey about unlearning, I would say, after this, or since I started working with the community, right, because when I was an architect, I was in a position that I thought, okay, I’ll do a box. And that will be a room for a person, right? I’ll just draw a box. I will decide where the windows should be and how it will see that can, I can definitely work on the functional aspect of a design, but how that will help the people, that should come from them. So it should always be a participatory process. And I’m a huge fan of Participatory Action Reserach, it’s called PAR in reserach domain where you involve people right from the beginning. And I do take lectures as well here on the same domain because I want people to work on that because that is something which will definitely create more meaningful solutions for society.
And maybe with these dialogues, I guess something comes out really meaningful. And that would be, I’m super proud of all of you, trust me for coming up with these ideas of, let’s say, contacting the people and discussing these things. And even if you let’s say, come up with some sort of a write-up or something that can contribute to academia, as well as people, it will be really helpful. Right. And I’m more than happy in whatever capacity I could help you because you are planning to pursue a career there in the same discipline in whatever capacity I could help you just feel free to connect.
Shivangi: I do have one last question, how feasible is, the idea of developing a really huge community space that is inclusive and accessible? So let’s say that we begin small with a few communities, but how feasible is the idea to imagine that at a larger scale?
Navjit: There are two ways of it. Again, I’m, whatever I’m saying is based on my experiences, you may choose to differ or people can have different perspectives of it. So, there are two ways of it. Either you work from whole to part or part to whole. That is what is taught to us in architecture. By whole to part, I mean, it’s top-down approach. You see a bigger picture and you come up to a small unit of that and then try expanding that. Or do you start building from there and end up at that small space or it, or is it part to whole, you start working on a small community space and see how it expands to the larger community space, right? So it works. It can work either way, depending on what you’re planning to do.
The first thing that is important is what is the need and where we are aiming at, for instance, let’s say, when we started working in the slums of Delhi, there are lots of spaces that they use to dump garbage, but let’s say they are unused spaces, right? So when we did the survey and directed with the people we thought, okay, they need something, some sort of space where they could learn, they could come and study. They thought, okay, let’s build a community library there. Then when we asked for this, they said, okay, use that space. And that space was being used maybe to put their garbage and everything they thought, see, these spaces are unusable. These people want clean that space but they’ll go back to that, right? But we cleaned that same space involving the volunteers from the community, right? And we ended up creating a good community space for them, which is even now being maintained by them. They painted every year, they host their functions. They have a space within the community. Now they don’t need to rent those marriage halls for those functions or even small celebrations. So it is within their community. We need to be very mindful of what space we have and how it’s transformed, how meaningful it is for them, and how they can relate to their space, and engage with that space.
And then again, thinking about the bigger picture of the community, let’s say you carve out a small space, which was already there. You did not do anything that was already there. You identified that space and made it habitable, making it usable for the people from that. See what are the other community engagements, where people want to engage more. If they want bigger spaces like that, look for this basis in and around the community and how that could be made. That could be a multi-purpose space. Like it can have different spaces that are segregated within that. So it’s more about how what you have learned and how you transform those learnings in creating these spaces.
So if you’re mindful of that, you will definitely expand it to, for instance, we started working in one slum. Now we are working in five slums of Delhi. So we are working on inclusive education. We identified, okay, there are the women who have their entire afternoon free, don’t do anything. And they want to learn, they have this zeal to learn. They are wonderful, and articulate in their work. They do all sorts of artefacts. So we thought, okay, let’s do an Hunar Shala kind of thing, where they’ll come up, we’ll just train them in whatever capacity they want. And let them take lead themselves, form the self-help group. Now they’re creating wonderful artwork for themselves and they sell it and it helps them in generating the economy. And that this is one of the examples. There are lots of examples like that, so the more you interact with people, you come up with these ideas and let them come up with ideas. As we put the question on them, because it’s very easy to blame the society or blame the government, that government is not doing anything. Or the society is very bad. People are very bad in society. They don’t do anything. What are you doing? Right. If you think about that line, that will definitely create a lot of solutions.
Shivangi: Yes, definitely. That’s everything on my side, this has been really meaningful. I have learned a lot and I think anyone who’s interested in the field will definitely benefit a lot from this. Thank you so much for your time!
